Sorry about all the errors in the version of this post that was emailed out. I thought I had fixed them all before the email went out, but apparently not. I am loving this site, but there’s been a steep learning curve for me. Thanks for your patience! 😀
Happy to proofread if it helps :) You can send a Test email (hit Preview then select Test) to any email address you choose (I sometimes send one to myself just to see how it looks before scheduling the post).
That’s very kind of you. I have a friend who does that for me but this week’s revisions and edits were rushed since I was traveling last week (again). But I just realized something: if I move the post from “draft” to “schedule” do the edits I make after that not make it into the email? Does that question make sense? Because I made edits that only showed up online not in the email.
Yes, makes sense! I'm pretty sure that it ought to be the case that edits made once the piece is scheduled do then show up in the sent version. They have for me anyhow. Maybe there's a time limit on that, though, and edits made close to the sending point don't show up?
It's a great point to make, that not just Chaucer but all writers are writing "within a social and literary context" - which means extra work for readers to discover the context and so to be wiser, more faithful readers (for Bible readers, too). As you say, it's definitely part of the fun of reading, as trails are opened up (perhaps the best use of footnotes in more academic works) - having read Seamus Heaney's translation of The Cure at Troy and then listening to U2's song Peace On Earth it became clear Bono hadn't coined but rather borrowed the phrase about hope and history rhyming (or not).
It's a translation piece he did of Sophocles' play Philoctetes. I thought it was only a section he translated but on checking it now it sounds like it might have been the whole thing. A section of it appears in the Heaney collection 100 Poems (conveniently the section with the history and hope line).
The two tasks of a writer: to illuminate and comment…and with that effort, perhaps even alter history.
I was just struck by your introductory context and phrase:
“writing within a social and literary context, taking what is given, illuminating and commenting on it, and—in the case of geniuses like Chaucer—contributing to that context in ways that make—and sometimes even alter—history.l
So the tale comes full circle, with the knight/rapist subject to a women's will...and since it's the wife of Bath's tale, I'm assuming lines 1255--56 refer to the bedroom.
The first time I read the Wife of Bath's tale I was sure I had read the story before. I had, of course, in versions of the tales of King Arthur. Steeleye Span's album 'Below the Salt' has yet another version of the loathly lady in their dramatic setting of King Henry (Child ballad 32, collected c. 1793), which concludes:
Thinking further on the loathly lady theme of how yielding a woman her will makes her beautiful in his eyes, and how it contrasted, in The Wife of Bath's Tale, to the rape that begins the tale, I was reminded of the tragedy of Tamar in II Samuel 13:1-20, where after Ammon rapes Tamar, she becomes loathsome to him. I wonder if the loathly lady cultural trope served as an admonition to men that a willing woman would be a far more enjoyable partner than a woman who was forced.
I don't know that artist. So fun! There are so many versions of the Arthurian legends, and with it these motifs like the loathly lady. Thanks for sharing that work!
That same artist, Steeleye Span, had their biggest UK hit with a song, All Around My Hat, dating from the 19th century (apparently) that includes a reference to the year plus one day trope ("for a twelve month and a day").
I understood’ she obeyed him in everything that would please him’ as ‘she was an amazing lover’ but was that more the intonation the actress put into the lines than Chaucer’s meaning?
That is a great question! I think it’s an intentional double meaning. That phrase “double meaning” often suggests the sexual meaning is the second, hidden meaning. Here I would say that the sexual meaning is the surface level meaning (and is definitely part of the meaning, even primary) as this whole conversation takes place in bed and includes blissful kisses and the closing wish for the listener of the tale is for young, lusty husbands. But I think the second meaning is that they lived happily together in all the ways. It is a courtly romance. The genre presupposes that a good lover is necessary to a good marriage. So I think it’s all of that. And we do have to remember who is telling the tale and all she’s said beforehand.
The layers beyond just the surface meaning of the sexual relationship seem to be also described in that “she becomes beautiful in accordance with the doctrine that to the eyes of a true lover his lady is always beautiful.”
This beauty yes, is physical. But there is an otherworldly component that compels someone to see beauty both within and without as they take their role as a true lover.
Sorry about all the errors in the version of this post that was emailed out. I thought I had fixed them all before the email went out, but apparently not. I am loving this site, but there’s been a steep learning curve for me. Thanks for your patience! 😀
Happy to proofread if it helps :) You can send a Test email (hit Preview then select Test) to any email address you choose (I sometimes send one to myself just to see how it looks before scheduling the post).
That’s very kind of you. I have a friend who does that for me but this week’s revisions and edits were rushed since I was traveling last week (again). But I just realized something: if I move the post from “draft” to “schedule” do the edits I make after that not make it into the email? Does that question make sense? Because I made edits that only showed up online not in the email.
Yes, makes sense! I'm pretty sure that it ought to be the case that edits made once the piece is scheduled do then show up in the sent version. They have for me anyhow. Maybe there's a time limit on that, though, and edits made close to the sending point don't show up?
I think that may be what happened. Oh well. I can only improve from here--I hope! 😂
It's a great point to make, that not just Chaucer but all writers are writing "within a social and literary context" - which means extra work for readers to discover the context and so to be wiser, more faithful readers (for Bible readers, too). As you say, it's definitely part of the fun of reading, as trails are opened up (perhaps the best use of footnotes in more academic works) - having read Seamus Heaney's translation of The Cure at Troy and then listening to U2's song Peace On Earth it became clear Bono hadn't coined but rather borrowed the phrase about hope and history rhyming (or not).
I don’t know that work, The Cure at Troy. Is it a poem?
It's a translation piece he did of Sophocles' play Philoctetes. I thought it was only a section he translated but on checking it now it sounds like it might have been the whole thing. A section of it appears in the Heaney collection 100 Poems (conveniently the section with the history and hope line).
Thanks!
The two tasks of a writer: to illuminate and comment…and with that effort, perhaps even alter history.
I was just struck by your introductory context and phrase:
“writing within a social and literary context, taking what is given, illuminating and commenting on it, and—in the case of geniuses like Chaucer—contributing to that context in ways that make—and sometimes even alter—history.l
Yes! Those two tasks. The way you distilled what I said is so helpful. Thank you!
As we say in my world, "my pleasure."
So the tale comes full circle, with the knight/rapist subject to a women's will...and since it's the wife of Bath's tale, I'm assuming lines 1255--56 refer to the bedroom.
Yes, they do. And full circle is a perfect way to describe it!
The first time I read the Wife of Bath's tale I was sure I had read the story before. I had, of course, in versions of the tales of King Arthur. Steeleye Span's album 'Below the Salt' has yet another version of the loathly lady in their dramatic setting of King Henry (Child ballad 32, collected c. 1793), which concludes:
'"I've met with many a gentle knight
That gave gave me such a fill
But never before with a courteous knight
That gave me all my will."'
Thinking further on the loathly lady theme of how yielding a woman her will makes her beautiful in his eyes, and how it contrasted, in The Wife of Bath's Tale, to the rape that begins the tale, I was reminded of the tragedy of Tamar in II Samuel 13:1-20, where after Ammon rapes Tamar, she becomes loathsome to him. I wonder if the loathly lady cultural trope served as an admonition to men that a willing woman would be a far more enjoyable partner than a woman who was forced.
It could be and it should be.
Wow. What an incredible connection and insight.
I don't know that artist. So fun! There are so many versions of the Arthurian legends, and with it these motifs like the loathly lady. Thanks for sharing that work!
That same artist, Steeleye Span, had their biggest UK hit with a song, All Around My Hat, dating from the 19th century (apparently) that includes a reference to the year plus one day trope ("for a twelve month and a day").
I understood’ she obeyed him in everything that would please him’ as ‘she was an amazing lover’ but was that more the intonation the actress put into the lines than Chaucer’s meaning?
That is a great question! I think it’s an intentional double meaning. That phrase “double meaning” often suggests the sexual meaning is the second, hidden meaning. Here I would say that the sexual meaning is the surface level meaning (and is definitely part of the meaning, even primary) as this whole conversation takes place in bed and includes blissful kisses and the closing wish for the listener of the tale is for young, lusty husbands. But I think the second meaning is that they lived happily together in all the ways. It is a courtly romance. The genre presupposes that a good lover is necessary to a good marriage. So I think it’s all of that. And we do have to remember who is telling the tale and all she’s said beforehand.
That’s true! She doesn’t claim to have kept her husband happy by her excellent housekeeping
LOL
I have to say that ‘the clerk’s tale’ is one of the most disquieting stories I have ever read , I miss the wife of Bath .
It really is, isn’t it?
I love that you miss dear Alison!
This is such the “genius” of Chaucer it seems.
The layers beyond just the surface meaning of the sexual relationship seem to be also described in that “she becomes beautiful in accordance with the doctrine that to the eyes of a true lover his lady is always beautiful.”
This beauty yes, is physical. But there is an otherworldly component that compels someone to see beauty both within and without as they take their role as a true lover.
Yes! This is exactly it. And the genius, I think!