A historical footnote that might be useful: The historian Milton calls Socrates is not to be confused with the ancient pagan Greek philosopher of the same name. Socrates of Constantinople, or Socrates Scholasticus as he is surnamed, was a 5th century (A.D.) Greek Christian historian, who recorded the years of church history from 309-439 A.D. He wasn't afraid of the ugly truth - it is from his history that we get the horrifying account of the death of the pagan scholar Hypatia at the hands of a Christian mob in Alexandria, the culmination of a bloody political struggle between the Christian and Jewish factions in the city.
On Paul's quotations of pagan poets and philosophers: The quotation Paul uses during his sermon on the Areopagus (Mar's Hill) in Athens - "For we also our his offspring" - comes from ancient Greek poems to Zeus, including 'Phaenomena' by Aratus of Soli in the 3rd century B.C. Yet Paul clearly didn't think he was in danger of confusing his audience about which God he was talking about. In the Christian fundamentalist world I half grew up in, there was always someone getting upset about supposed pagan connections in Christmas or Easter (connections for which there is the flimsiest of evidence), spoiling our innocent joy in them. Perhaps a wider study of the pagans to whom the early Church preached would have prevented those continual misunderstandings.
Thank you, Karen, for diving in on my question. It's fascinating to see the research that's been done to uncover the identities of Milton's printers, but what's even more interesting for Christians is to see yet another example of a man of faith taking serious personal risks to push against what he saw to be unjust laws. There's much more to John Milton's life story than I had realized.
Karen thanks for this. I’m really on a journey of learning with this one—to understand and process. It’s always nice to listen during my daily commute.
It’s a very tough read. Even for me, haha! I hope the highlights I share, especially in future posts, help. There are nuggets of gold in there. I just want to set it up.
At this time how would Milton define a ‘bad book’ would he mean one that differs from him in matters of religion, like Dante? Or a frivolous comedy , like Plautus or Aristophanes or indeed Shakespeare?
My graduate school Milton professor said that Milton was the last person in history to have read everything. I'm sure that's hyperbole, but I have no doubt that if something was available to Milton and was literature, he read it, quite probably in its original language. Shakespeare read Plautus, as we know from his play Comedy of Errors (which is based on the Menaechmi Brothers). Dante was a known major author, and certainly Milton would have read anyone on the subject of hell. I will note that "known" makes a difference; we can say with confidence that Milton did not read Beowulf because it wasn't rediscovered until the next century.
As for bad books, Milton wasn't too keen on what was then recent Catholic theology and policy. As I am sure Karen will get to in due time, there is an exception in Areopagitica to his argument for press freedom, but I don't have the text in front of me to quote it accurately. But sex and bawdiness would have never scared him away; in fact, Book Four in Paradise Lost is in some way an argument for eros.
One last observation, germane to parts of PL, is that Milton himself holds to a heretical view on the deity of Jesus Christ, at least as many scholars (and I) see it. Jesus is not co-eternal and equal in deity to his father, as Milton portrays him.
Thank you Jack, for bringing up Milton's heretical view on the person of Jesus Christ. I was aware of it and uncertain where to mention it. It doesn't make Milton's point in Areopagitica less valid, rather Christian can let the error in Milton's own work and let it wrestle with the Truth.
His heretical view comes into PL, but even more into his concept of 'Paradise Regained'. My father has a century old annotated edition of both Lost and Regained, with scholarly notes pointing it out, but even a lay person reading Regained (I have read more of Regained than Lost) can sense the distortion.
I plan to point out the heretical stuff in PL. I didn’t know it was more prominent in PR! I’ve never read that. You will need to share more as we go along.
Also reminds me I need to bring up the divorce controversy!
I used to think and excuse the heresy as a result of a dramatic characterization choice. Kind of an "oops" while making Jesus humanly relatable. But that doesn't really work as the heresy appears in his Christian doctrine work as well. The reason I mentioned it in this thread, which I didn't state explicitly, is that Milton gets a little censorious about Catholic doctrine, and missing his own fallibility.
Great question! (And I do plan to raise this in a later post when we dig into more of the parallels and non-parallels of Milton’s argument for today.) He seems throughout the essay to be talking about heretical books or bad theology. In the passages referenced today perhaps even general cultural learning.
I don’t think Donne would have considered high literature (even the bawdy, satirical kind) problematic. The context also makes clear that the licensing issue was mainly being used as a political weapon.
But this question is one that has always interested me and that I don’t have a researched answer to.
A historical footnote that might be useful: The historian Milton calls Socrates is not to be confused with the ancient pagan Greek philosopher of the same name. Socrates of Constantinople, or Socrates Scholasticus as he is surnamed, was a 5th century (A.D.) Greek Christian historian, who recorded the years of church history from 309-439 A.D. He wasn't afraid of the ugly truth - it is from his history that we get the horrifying account of the death of the pagan scholar Hypatia at the hands of a Christian mob in Alexandria, the culmination of a bloody political struggle between the Christian and Jewish factions in the city.
On Paul's quotations of pagan poets and philosophers: The quotation Paul uses during his sermon on the Areopagus (Mar's Hill) in Athens - "For we also our his offspring" - comes from ancient Greek poems to Zeus, including 'Phaenomena' by Aratus of Soli in the 3rd century B.C. Yet Paul clearly didn't think he was in danger of confusing his audience about which God he was talking about. In the Christian fundamentalist world I half grew up in, there was always someone getting upset about supposed pagan connections in Christmas or Easter (connections for which there is the flimsiest of evidence), spoiling our innocent joy in them. Perhaps a wider study of the pagans to whom the early Church preached would have prevented those continual misunderstandings.
Such a powerful insight about the clarification that would be made by reading the pagan sources. Really supposed Milton’s argument well.
And thank you for pointing out the different Socrates! Important not to get them confused.
Thank you, Karen, for diving in on my question. It's fascinating to see the research that's been done to uncover the identities of Milton's printers, but what's even more interesting for Christians is to see yet another example of a man of faith taking serious personal risks to push against what he saw to be unjust laws. There's much more to John Milton's life story than I had realized.
I’m so glad you asked! And I am grateful to learn more about Milton myself. I really like your description of his life and faith here.
Karen thanks for this. I’m really on a journey of learning with this one—to understand and process. It’s always nice to listen during my daily commute.
It’s a very tough read. Even for me, haha! I hope the highlights I share, especially in future posts, help. There are nuggets of gold in there. I just want to set it up.
At this time how would Milton define a ‘bad book’ would he mean one that differs from him in matters of religion, like Dante? Or a frivolous comedy , like Plautus or Aristophanes or indeed Shakespeare?
My graduate school Milton professor said that Milton was the last person in history to have read everything. I'm sure that's hyperbole, but I have no doubt that if something was available to Milton and was literature, he read it, quite probably in its original language. Shakespeare read Plautus, as we know from his play Comedy of Errors (which is based on the Menaechmi Brothers). Dante was a known major author, and certainly Milton would have read anyone on the subject of hell. I will note that "known" makes a difference; we can say with confidence that Milton did not read Beowulf because it wasn't rediscovered until the next century.
Milton likely read all of Shakespeare, and his Satan echoes Iago and Richard III. Here's a sonnet Milton wrote about Shakespeare: https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/46453/on-shakespeare-1630
As for bad books, Milton wasn't too keen on what was then recent Catholic theology and policy. As I am sure Karen will get to in due time, there is an exception in Areopagitica to his argument for press freedom, but I don't have the text in front of me to quote it accurately. But sex and bawdiness would have never scared him away; in fact, Book Four in Paradise Lost is in some way an argument for eros.
One last observation, germane to parts of PL, is that Milton himself holds to a heretical view on the deity of Jesus Christ, at least as many scholars (and I) see it. Jesus is not co-eternal and equal in deity to his father, as Milton portrays him.
Thank you Jack, for bringing up Milton's heretical view on the person of Jesus Christ. I was aware of it and uncertain where to mention it. It doesn't make Milton's point in Areopagitica less valid, rather Christian can let the error in Milton's own work and let it wrestle with the Truth.
His heretical view comes into PL, but even more into his concept of 'Paradise Regained'. My father has a century old annotated edition of both Lost and Regained, with scholarly notes pointing it out, but even a lay person reading Regained (I have read more of Regained than Lost) can sense the distortion.
I plan to point out the heretical stuff in PL. I didn’t know it was more prominent in PR! I’ve never read that. You will need to share more as we go along.
Also reminds me I need to bring up the divorce controversy!
Super helpful, Jack. Thank you. I expect we will get to the heretical stuff with PL.
I used to think and excuse the heresy as a result of a dramatic characterization choice. Kind of an "oops" while making Jesus humanly relatable. But that doesn't really work as the heresy appears in his Christian doctrine work as well. The reason I mentioned it in this thread, which I didn't state explicitly, is that Milton gets a little censorious about Catholic doctrine, and missing his own fallibility.
Great question! (And I do plan to raise this in a later post when we dig into more of the parallels and non-parallels of Milton’s argument for today.) He seems throughout the essay to be talking about heretical books or bad theology. In the passages referenced today perhaps even general cultural learning.
I don’t think Donne would have considered high literature (even the bawdy, satirical kind) problematic. The context also makes clear that the licensing issue was mainly being used as a political weapon.
But this question is one that has always interested me and that I don’t have a researched answer to.