Marlowe's poem is solidly in the pastoral tradition. Donne's clever satire is both sharp - love the stanza about letting others cut themselves on oyster shells - and seductive.
Karen and Jack, I was raised on classical music and so knew little to nothing about the Police, until the classical music station we listened to started talking about an album released by Police lead singer Sting. Called Songs from the Labyrinth, it was songs by Renaissance lutenist and composer John Dowland, who was contemporary with Shakespeare. Sting's roughened rockstar voice (the rock style can really damage a voice if it isn't trained well) goes a bit oddly with the refined Renaissance phraseology but I think the classical world was just delighted to be noticed: https://youtu.be/RYb-7JOQRQQ?feature=shared
You really missed out, Holly, lyrically Police were up there with the best: "De do do do, de da da da" is one of their finest :) But, seriously, Sting does pack a lot of literary allusions into his songswriting, albeit I might agree with Jack (if I had read Nabokov). I could never decide if he was paying serious tribute to original sources or some kind of faux literacy, trying to look well-versed. I know that temptation as a preacher, very well, but I'm happy to give Sting the benefit of the doubt.
Judging from only his musical efforts, like the John Dowland album, Sting genuinely would like to be part of the literary/classical world. Another Sting song we later heard on that classical music station was 'Englishman in New York', which shows Sting's admiration for what he perceives to be gentlemanly English cultural values. The chorus in that song is genuinely clever satire - "Wha-oh, I'm an alien, I'm a legal alien": https://youtu.be/d27gTrPPAyk?feature=shared
It makes me think of an old article I read about a famous Cape Breton fiddler. Cape Breton is a culturally distinct region in the Canadian province of Nova Scotia, settled by Scottish crofters (they still speak Gaelic there) who suffered decades of poverty while working in coal mines now no longer in operation, so this fiddler would have grown up in great deprivation. The interviewer asked the fiddler if he had any regrets. The fiddler replied, to the interviewer's expressed astonishment, that he regretted he couldn't have studied classical violin technique. I think Sting would have liked to have been in the classical world too.
You've probably got him right, Holly. By way of sheer coincidence, having written/read about the Police on here I've got their album Zenyatta Mondatta playing on Spotify and at this very moment the song that's playing is titled Canary in a Coalmine...!
The Marlowe poem became instantly famous. Sir Walter Raleigh and Izaak Walton also wrote poems inspired by it. And if anyone thinks it sounds mildly Shakespeare, the poem was set to music in the 1995 film of Richard III. A person can probably find a clip of that segment online.
I tend to read "The Bait" less about Christ. I question myself on how far to separate Donne's erotic poems from his religious poems--sometimes they are identical--but "The Bait" seems more one than the other.
I agree about the Police, but now my quibble with them: "Don't Stand So Close to Me" is Exhibit A on how not to do an allusion. The lyric about "the famous book by Nabokov" is very annoying.
Years ago, I was part of a Bob Dylan online forum. One time, someone there pointed out that he seemed to quote from The Great Gatsby in the song "Summer Days" (from 2001's Love and Theft album). I looked up the lyrics, and I would say they're Exhibit A for how to do a literary allusion in music. "What d'ya mean you can't? Of course you can."
Jack, when I was reading Wendell Berry's collected sabbath poems I came across him using the phrase 'Time out of mind' and wondered if Dylan had also read that poem (it's 1983 II, and the Dylan album of that title was released in 1997)? Or maybe the phrase is too common to be considered borrowed?
I haven't heard a comment on the origin of the title for Time out of Mind. Sometimes the titles refer to something literary; "Love and Theft" actually appears in quotation marks for the title. I forget where he got that from. Dylan does read widely, but I haven't heard that he had gotten the title from Berry.
Another song that I think is rich in a variety of allusions is "I and I."
Reading Marlowe's poem I'm like 'Yeah, that's nice; sweet' but then Donne it's like 'Whoah! In a different league!' I love the way you've expressed how Donne might be offering a glimpse of being wooed by the Saviour, with all the complex layers that involves which Donne so expertly hints at with his imagery. Marlowe's obsession with himself feels far too much like prayers I've prayed, as though I might impress the Lord (!); Donne is far, far worthier.
Really looking forward to those author interviews, Karen - I read your interview with E. Lily Yu in CT and thought you did a great job, your questions led to some great insights from her. I buy far too many books and am currently putting up very mild resistance to the 'bait' of hers!
Back to Donne: I'm not sure if they ever made much of a splash in the US but the British band Heaven 17 (members of which had formerly been part of The Human League) had a bit of a UK hit in '83 with a song titled Come Live With Me - maybe they were more literary than I realised at the time...
I had the slightest thought in my mind that said, "What if this poem is about God?" after my second reading. Then you mentioned Jesus :-).
I am wondering, though, what the last line means then?
"That fish, that is not catch'd thereby,
Alas, is wiser far than I."
If he is talking about a woman, is he saying that wise men stay away from being enamored by her? Also, how would this line tie in with the thought of being "caught by Christ?" Or maybe the comparison does not go that far.
Yeah, I am not entirely sure about this reading but I tried to support it in saying in the final part that we have to be not “wise” in a worldly sense to be taken by Christ—like children.
I love that you sensed this element of the poem in reading it! I think it’s there whether Donne “intended” it or not.
I get the religious allusion. Otherwise, the poem reads a bit sinister to me. The lines about the efforts of the hapless competing fishermen who are getting cut and muddied in their efforts to catch fish that only want the beloved suggests other attempts at faith rather than other beloveds to whom the fish are not as attracted.
That is a really interesting insight I will have to ponder, David! I wasn’t seeing the fishermen as “hapless.” I will have to mull this. Certainly, there is an underlying violence in that imagery.
Love: "Marlowe’s poem sings. Donne’s sizzles." I continue to enjoy "English lit summer school." Also, thank you for your book recommendations. Steven King's "You Like It Darker" is great to read as I recover from surgery (treatments and surgery show "complete response" -- no evidence of cancer remaining -- praise God!). I'm glad you pointed out King's story that pays homage to Flannery O'Connor. I will check my library to see where I keep at least one of O'Connor's books to re-read. Also, I have read "A Little Life" -- your review is right on target.
Marlowe sung in 1940s swing style, and it works perfectly! I have heard of that production of Richard III, but never seen it. That British star studded cast is making me want to watch it now.
Karen, as always, thank you for taking us 'below the surface' of Donne's poem, helping me see the comparison - of course! - to how like Christ this 'fish' and bait actually is. I would not have noticed it without your trained teacher eyes.
I like Donne's better, anyway--his focus on the beloved's and its other-centeredness rang truer to this reader.
((next week is our last Donne class?!; how can that be?))
Marlowe's poem is solidly in the pastoral tradition. Donne's clever satire is both sharp - love the stanza about letting others cut themselves on oyster shells - and seductive.
Karen and Jack, I was raised on classical music and so knew little to nothing about the Police, until the classical music station we listened to started talking about an album released by Police lead singer Sting. Called Songs from the Labyrinth, it was songs by Renaissance lutenist and composer John Dowland, who was contemporary with Shakespeare. Sting's roughened rockstar voice (the rock style can really damage a voice if it isn't trained well) goes a bit oddly with the refined Renaissance phraseology but I think the classical world was just delighted to be noticed: https://youtu.be/RYb-7JOQRQQ?feature=shared
You really missed out, Holly, lyrically Police were up there with the best: "De do do do, de da da da" is one of their finest :) But, seriously, Sting does pack a lot of literary allusions into his songswriting, albeit I might agree with Jack (if I had read Nabokov). I could never decide if he was paying serious tribute to original sources or some kind of faux literacy, trying to look well-versed. I know that temptation as a preacher, very well, but I'm happy to give Sting the benefit of the doubt.
Judging from only his musical efforts, like the John Dowland album, Sting genuinely would like to be part of the literary/classical world. Another Sting song we later heard on that classical music station was 'Englishman in New York', which shows Sting's admiration for what he perceives to be gentlemanly English cultural values. The chorus in that song is genuinely clever satire - "Wha-oh, I'm an alien, I'm a legal alien": https://youtu.be/d27gTrPPAyk?feature=shared
It makes me think of an old article I read about a famous Cape Breton fiddler. Cape Breton is a culturally distinct region in the Canadian province of Nova Scotia, settled by Scottish crofters (they still speak Gaelic there) who suffered decades of poverty while working in coal mines now no longer in operation, so this fiddler would have grown up in great deprivation. The interviewer asked the fiddler if he had any regrets. The fiddler replied, to the interviewer's expressed astonishment, that he regretted he couldn't have studied classical violin technique. I think Sting would have liked to have been in the classical world too.
You've probably got him right, Holly. By way of sheer coincidence, having written/read about the Police on here I've got their album Zenyatta Mondatta playing on Spotify and at this very moment the song that's playing is titled Canary in a Coalmine...!
The Marlowe poem became instantly famous. Sir Walter Raleigh and Izaak Walton also wrote poems inspired by it. And if anyone thinks it sounds mildly Shakespeare, the poem was set to music in the 1995 film of Richard III. A person can probably find a clip of that segment online.
I tend to read "The Bait" less about Christ. I question myself on how far to separate Donne's erotic poems from his religious poems--sometimes they are identical--but "The Bait" seems more one than the other.
I agree about the Police, but now my quibble with them: "Don't Stand So Close to Me" is Exhibit A on how not to do an allusion. The lyric about "the famous book by Nabokov" is very annoying.
Years ago, I was part of a Bob Dylan online forum. One time, someone there pointed out that he seemed to quote from The Great Gatsby in the song "Summer Days" (from 2001's Love and Theft album). I looked up the lyrics, and I would say they're Exhibit A for how to do a literary allusion in music. "What d'ya mean you can't? Of course you can."
Jack, when I was reading Wendell Berry's collected sabbath poems I came across him using the phrase 'Time out of mind' and wondered if Dylan had also read that poem (it's 1983 II, and the Dylan album of that title was released in 1997)? Or maybe the phrase is too common to be considered borrowed?
I haven't heard a comment on the origin of the title for Time out of Mind. Sometimes the titles refer to something literary; "Love and Theft" actually appears in quotation marks for the title. I forget where he got that from. Dylan does read widely, but I haven't heard that he had gotten the title from Berry.
Another song that I think is rich in a variety of allusions is "I and I."
So now my Spotify has Love & Theft playing..... loving this thread!
The song setting for the Marlowe poem: https://youtu.be/x2l-zjYnSnA?si=t03aRhr9ZZlp4Pw_
Wow! That is brilliant! I have never watched this. Sometimes I feel so culturally illiterate. 😅
Back when I was teaching Shakespeare, I often used a clip from this movie of the opening monologue. A very good film version.
Richard III became one of my favorite plays to teach.
Jack, I’m not entirely sure about the erotic/religious tension in this poem either. I would need to read more criticism.
Totally with you on that line and that song. Not my favorite from The Police!
Reading Marlowe's poem I'm like 'Yeah, that's nice; sweet' but then Donne it's like 'Whoah! In a different league!' I love the way you've expressed how Donne might be offering a glimpse of being wooed by the Saviour, with all the complex layers that involves which Donne so expertly hints at with his imagery. Marlowe's obsession with himself feels far too much like prayers I've prayed, as though I might impress the Lord (!); Donne is far, far worthier.
Really looking forward to those author interviews, Karen - I read your interview with E. Lily Yu in CT and thought you did a great job, your questions led to some great insights from her. I buy far too many books and am currently putting up very mild resistance to the 'bait' of hers!
Back to Donne: I'm not sure if they ever made much of a splash in the US but the British band Heaven 17 (members of which had formerly been part of The Human League) had a bit of a UK hit in '83 with a song titled Come Live With Me - maybe they were more literary than I realised at the time...
What a great insight about how we can tend to pray: telling God what we have to offer him. 😅
Even just on the wooing of the woman level, there are so many rich layers to Donne’s poem that would take days to uncover…
Never heard of the band. But a lot of pop bands are more literary than people know. The Police were for sure!
I’m so glad you are looking forward to the author interviews! I am as well!
I had the slightest thought in my mind that said, "What if this poem is about God?" after my second reading. Then you mentioned Jesus :-).
I am wondering, though, what the last line means then?
"That fish, that is not catch'd thereby,
Alas, is wiser far than I."
If he is talking about a woman, is he saying that wise men stay away from being enamored by her? Also, how would this line tie in with the thought of being "caught by Christ?" Or maybe the comparison does not go that far.
Yeah, I am not entirely sure about this reading but I tried to support it in saying in the final part that we have to be not “wise” in a worldly sense to be taken by Christ—like children.
I love that you sensed this element of the poem in reading it! I think it’s there whether Donne “intended” it or not.
It’s because I have a good teacher 😉
I get the religious allusion. Otherwise, the poem reads a bit sinister to me. The lines about the efforts of the hapless competing fishermen who are getting cut and muddied in their efforts to catch fish that only want the beloved suggests other attempts at faith rather than other beloveds to whom the fish are not as attracted.
That is a really interesting insight I will have to ponder, David! I wasn’t seeing the fishermen as “hapless.” I will have to mull this. Certainly, there is an underlying violence in that imagery.
Love: "Marlowe’s poem sings. Donne’s sizzles." I continue to enjoy "English lit summer school." Also, thank you for your book recommendations. Steven King's "You Like It Darker" is great to read as I recover from surgery (treatments and surgery show "complete response" -- no evidence of cancer remaining -- praise God!). I'm glad you pointed out King's story that pays homage to Flannery O'Connor. I will check my library to see where I keep at least one of O'Connor's books to re-read. Also, I have read "A Little Life" -- your review is right on target.
Marlowe sung in 1940s swing style, and it works perfectly! I have heard of that production of Richard III, but never seen it. That British star studded cast is making me want to watch it now.
Same!
Karen, as always, thank you for taking us 'below the surface' of Donne's poem, helping me see the comparison - of course! - to how like Christ this 'fish' and bait actually is. I would not have noticed it without your trained teacher eyes.
I like Donne's better, anyway--his focus on the beloved's and its other-centeredness rang truer to this reader.
((next week is our last Donne class?!; how can that be?))
Jody, thank you so much for requesting this poem! It was a joy to read it closely and write about it here.
Terri, I am rejoicing with you at your results! Simply rejoicing.
I am glad you are enjoying King! A Little Life is, well, even darker.