I have always loved Donne, and this poem, so much. Today I love him, and it, even more. Mission accomplished. :) The "yet" calls to mind the numerous "yet" and "but now" turns in the Bible - Job, David in the Psalms, Paul in Romans, etc. So beautiful.
Who do you think Donne sees as the enemy, Karen? Is it a personification of Sin or perhaps the Devil? My New Testament lecturer believed that Paul in Romans 7 is speaking about humanity wedded to Satan in sin . I was never convinced, certainly not from that passage, but maybe he and Donne are on the same page? I also wondered if line 6's 'Labour to admit you' was a sideways glance at Song of Songs 5:5 where the Loved's hands drip with myrrh and struggle to open the door. But perhaps that's an allusion too far.
Really looking forward to this series - the only Donne I've read is Philip Yancey's recent modern rendering of Donne's Devotions which was excellent. I didn't have any of Donne's poetry on my shelves so I've bought the Delphi Kindle edition of his poems - they do a great job and for less than $2 it's a steal.
Richard, I donāt know the answer to your question theologically. I can approach it poetically. I think the Enemy in the poem is the speakerās own self, the unbroken, unregenerate heart. But such does not exclude sin or Satan, so it really could be all of the above. I think the question is, did Donne mean one of these specifically, which we might know based on his other writings, including his sermons. Or did he intend in the poem to use enemy in terms more literally aligned with the conceits, and therefore more generally metaphorical? I think he meant it all to apply and was not making a precise theological statement. Itās an interesting question.
Oh, Richard, I also wanted to say that I saw that modernization of Donne. I truly hope that it helps readers and draws them toward Donneās poetry. But as for myself, I know I couldnāt bear to look. š
š Yes, I can imagine that might feel like listening to a somewhat lame cover version of one of your most-loved tracks by one of your favourite artists (not that I'm looking at you, Roxy Music, for Lennon's Jealous Guy.....).
I've missed "Professor Prior mode" and am glad to dive in again.
I loved this sonnet when I read it. Although initially I did not understand all the older words in the way they were used (there was a lot of looking up), I understood what it was saying. I immediately thought of Psalm 42:7: "All your breakers and waves have rolled over me."
The part that intrigued me the most was the word viceroy and how he used it. Is my understanding correct in that he means to say that God is the ruler of his inner person, or is there a different way to understand it?
"Wit" is one of my favorite plays/films. Emma Thompson is my favorite actress, and she is brilliant in it. I need a watch party, though no one wants to watch it with me because they say it's depressing. I think it is beautiful.
Thanks for your definitions of poetry terms. I appreciate it.
The Poem means to describe reason as a regent or second in command (āregional assistant to the managerā). In other words, a voice, Roy is something like a vice president. The poem is depicting reason as the one who takes Godās place in us. Those of this age who believe so highly in reason wouldāve seen it that way. But Dan is saying that reason is not as true and reliable as many think.
While others were seeing "Reason" as the source of wisdom, and enlightenment Donne recognized that it was just as fallen and enslaved to sin as everything else.
Alright, I get it now. :-) Even after that nice explanation, it was going over my head, so I listened to your audio reading of it. It helped me understand the poem's cadence, linking "reason" to "viceroy." I was not reading it that way in my head. Light bulb, haha.
It didnt help that my reply to you was dictated by voice. š¤¦āāļø
Itās a metaphysical conceit: reason is like a viceroy, a kingās assistant, in this case Godās assistant; but reason is a Dwight Schrute of an assistant. (Wish Iād thought of that for the post!)
Aha! There it is, the Office reference makes it make sense š. So if you could do that for every poem thatād be great. š That was the toughest line in the poem for me. Thank you.
Professor Prior~I'm so happy we're embarking on this! I will relish listening to this as much as reading it--and pretend I'm in the classroom. Thank you!
Edited to add....I'm reminded, as I read your last lines (there's a note in my tattered copy of Donne's work to this effect) that the idea of being ravished is in keeping with God's deep desire to know us fully.
Also:
My introduction to sonnets was many years ago via Malcolm Guite, whose work continues to enchant and intrigue me. I'm so very glad you explained the differences in the kinds of sonnets.
And if requests might be in order, I'd love to spend a bit of time looking at Donne's first seven Holy Sonnets where the last line of each poem is the first of the next, forming a 'corona' or crown....the form and content are fascinating!
When looking for Donne's Holy Sonnets for this, I discovered, according to the edition I found on gutenberg.org, there are two cycles called 'Holy Sonnets'. There is the set of 19 which includes 'Batter my heart' and 'Death be not proud', and a cycle of seven on the Incarnation of Christ, beginning with 'La Corona' and ending with 'Ascencion'. I noticed in the seven sonnet cycle, Donne uses a line structure like the Petrarchan sonnet, but a thought structure more like the Shakespearean with the final turn coming in the last couplet. Still more complex, the ending line of each sonnet is the beginning of the next, including the 7th and 1st sonnet, making a complete circle.
I read these to my mother, and she liked them so much that she wanted to give copies as gifts, but we discovered it is very hard to find the Holy Sonnets on their own, outside anthologies of Donne's complete poems.
Oh, and this has also got me reading his 'Devotions upon emergent occasions', from whence comes his famous "No man is an island" mediation. It is really resonating with my own experiences. My question is, why in the world isn't Donne more popular in the evangelical world where you and I come from. He should be up there with C.S. Lewis and John Bunyan.
You've probably read Isaak Walton's biography of Donne - I only knew Walton previously for his 'Compleat Angler'. I really enjoyed his portrait of Donne. I think sonnets 15 & 16 of the 19 'Holy' cycle are my favourites so far, but I am still digesting them all.
It is short, which to me, having read some interminable biographies [Boswell's 'Life of Johnson'], is a definite asset. Walton was a unique writer, a little apt to ramble but one that wrote about things he loved with simplicity. I found his short bio of Donne delightful. His final line has stayed with me:
'He was earnest and unwearied in the search of knowledge, with which his vigorous soul is now satisfied, and employed in a continual praise of that God that first breathed it into his active body: that body which once was a temple of the Holy Ghost, and is now become a small quantity of Christian dust:ā
"But there is a method to such madness, as such use of reason can serve, paradoxically, to demonstrate the limits of reason, pointing to the mystical by way of the intellect." Using Shakespeare to help us understand Donne - now that is fun! "Though he be mad, there is method in't" ~ Polonius, Act ll, Scene ll, Hamlet.
Please Professor if you have time could we do the passage from his sermon on the mercy of God where he discusses God bringing a summer out of winter ? It is so beautiful and I only discovered it when it was quoted in a novel
Thanks for the Amy Low book recommendation -- I've sent for a copy. Also, you mentioned Henry VIII and divorce. If you haven't seen the Broadway show "Six" (about his six wives), you should check it out -- amazing music and quite a history lesson!
My disenchanted, post-Enlightenment mind struggled with the word "Reason" as a viceroy of God rather than as an antonym to Faith. Karen, it seems that the enemy in this poem is Doubt expressed with care and with such gorgeous language. Thank you for this series,
I have always loved Donne, and this poem, so much. Today I love him, and it, even more. Mission accomplished. :) The "yet" calls to mind the numerous "yet" and "but now" turns in the Bible - Job, David in the Psalms, Paul in Romans, etc. So beautiful.
Truly. And Iām so glad, Rachael. š
Who do you think Donne sees as the enemy, Karen? Is it a personification of Sin or perhaps the Devil? My New Testament lecturer believed that Paul in Romans 7 is speaking about humanity wedded to Satan in sin . I was never convinced, certainly not from that passage, but maybe he and Donne are on the same page? I also wondered if line 6's 'Labour to admit you' was a sideways glance at Song of Songs 5:5 where the Loved's hands drip with myrrh and struggle to open the door. But perhaps that's an allusion too far.
Really looking forward to this series - the only Donne I've read is Philip Yancey's recent modern rendering of Donne's Devotions which was excellent. I didn't have any of Donne's poetry on my shelves so I've bought the Delphi Kindle edition of his poems - they do a great job and for less than $2 it's a steal.
Richard, I donāt know the answer to your question theologically. I can approach it poetically. I think the Enemy in the poem is the speakerās own self, the unbroken, unregenerate heart. But such does not exclude sin or Satan, so it really could be all of the above. I think the question is, did Donne mean one of these specifically, which we might know based on his other writings, including his sermons. Or did he intend in the poem to use enemy in terms more literally aligned with the conceits, and therefore more generally metaphorical? I think he meant it all to apply and was not making a precise theological statement. Itās an interesting question.
Oh, Richard, I also wanted to say that I saw that modernization of Donne. I truly hope that it helps readers and draws them toward Donneās poetry. But as for myself, I know I couldnāt bear to look. š
š Yes, I can imagine that might feel like listening to a somewhat lame cover version of one of your most-loved tracks by one of your favourite artists (not that I'm looking at you, Roxy Music, for Lennon's Jealous Guy.....).
I've missed "Professor Prior mode" and am glad to dive in again.
I loved this sonnet when I read it. Although initially I did not understand all the older words in the way they were used (there was a lot of looking up), I understood what it was saying. I immediately thought of Psalm 42:7: "All your breakers and waves have rolled over me."
The part that intrigued me the most was the word viceroy and how he used it. Is my understanding correct in that he means to say that God is the ruler of his inner person, or is there a different way to understand it?
"Wit" is one of my favorite plays/films. Emma Thompson is my favorite actress, and she is brilliant in it. I need a watch party, though no one wants to watch it with me because they say it's depressing. I think it is beautiful.
Thanks for your definitions of poetry terms. I appreciate it.
The Poem means to describe reason as a regent or second in command (āregional assistant to the managerā). In other words, a voice, Roy is something like a vice president. The poem is depicting reason as the one who takes Godās place in us. Those of this age who believe so highly in reason wouldāve seen it that way. But Dan is saying that reason is not as true and reliable as many think.
While others were seeing "Reason" as the source of wisdom, and enlightenment Donne recognized that it was just as fallen and enslaved to sin as everything else.
Yes! Thatās exactly right! So simply and well put, Kevie!
Alright, I get it now. :-) Even after that nice explanation, it was going over my head, so I listened to your audio reading of it. It helped me understand the poem's cadence, linking "reason" to "viceroy." I was not reading it that way in my head. Light bulb, haha.
It didnt help that my reply to you was dictated by voice. š¤¦āāļø
Itās a metaphysical conceit: reason is like a viceroy, a kingās assistant, in this case Godās assistant; but reason is a Dwight Schrute of an assistant. (Wish Iād thought of that for the post!)
Aha! There it is, the Office reference makes it make sense š. So if you could do that for every poem thatād be great. š That was the toughest line in the poem for me. Thank you.
I will do my best with that! š
Professor Prior~I'm so happy we're embarking on this! I will relish listening to this as much as reading it--and pretend I'm in the classroom. Thank you!
Edited to add....I'm reminded, as I read your last lines (there's a note in my tattered copy of Donne's work to this effect) that the idea of being ravished is in keeping with God's deep desire to know us fully.
Also:
My introduction to sonnets was many years ago via Malcolm Guite, whose work continues to enchant and intrigue me. I'm so very glad you explained the differences in the kinds of sonnets.
And if requests might be in order, I'd love to spend a bit of time looking at Donne's first seven Holy Sonnets where the last line of each poem is the first of the next, forming a 'corona' or crown....the form and content are fascinating!
When looking for Donne's Holy Sonnets for this, I discovered, according to the edition I found on gutenberg.org, there are two cycles called 'Holy Sonnets'. There is the set of 19 which includes 'Batter my heart' and 'Death be not proud', and a cycle of seven on the Incarnation of Christ, beginning with 'La Corona' and ending with 'Ascencion'. I noticed in the seven sonnet cycle, Donne uses a line structure like the Petrarchan sonnet, but a thought structure more like the Shakespearean with the final turn coming in the last couplet. Still more complex, the ending line of each sonnet is the beginning of the next, including the 7th and 1st sonnet, making a complete circle.
I read these to my mother, and she liked them so much that she wanted to give copies as gifts, but we discovered it is very hard to find the Holy Sonnets on their own, outside anthologies of Donne's complete poems.
We must look for such an edition! And I did not know that about the complete circle. Donne was a genius. A true genius.
Oh, and this has also got me reading his 'Devotions upon emergent occasions', from whence comes his famous "No man is an island" mediation. It is really resonating with my own experiences. My question is, why in the world isn't Donne more popular in the evangelical world where you and I come from. He should be up there with C.S. Lewis and John Bunyan.
I put that one in the list! Itās Meditation 17 (although the numbers differ in some editions).
You've probably read Isaak Walton's biography of Donne - I only knew Walton previously for his 'Compleat Angler'. I really enjoyed his portrait of Donne. I think sonnets 15 & 16 of the 19 'Holy' cycle are my favourites so far, but I am still digesting them all.
Iāve not read Waltonās bio of Donne. Is it good?
It is short, which to me, having read some interminable biographies [Boswell's 'Life of Johnson'], is a definite asset. Walton was a unique writer, a little apt to ramble but one that wrote about things he loved with simplicity. I found his short bio of Donne delightful. His final line has stayed with me:
'He was earnest and unwearied in the search of knowledge, with which his vigorous soul is now satisfied, and employed in a continual praise of that God that first breathed it into his active body: that body which once was a temple of the Holy Ghost, and is now become a small quantity of Christian dust:ā
But I shall see it re-animated.'
Wow! What a closing!
(Got to love Boswellās Life!)
"But there is a method to such madness, as such use of reason can serve, paradoxically, to demonstrate the limits of reason, pointing to the mystical by way of the intellect." Using Shakespeare to help us understand Donne - now that is fun! "Though he be mad, there is method in't" ~ Polonius, Act ll, Scene ll, Hamlet.
I wish I could say I did that on purpose, but alas, I did not! š
Please Professor if you have time could we do the passage from his sermon on the mercy of God where he discusses God bringing a summer out of winter ? It is so beautiful and I only discovered it when it was quoted in a novel
I am happy to take requests! š Are you thinking of āA Nocturnal Upon St. Lucyās Day, Being the Shortest Dayā? Or another one?
I think it is that one
Oh! You said a sermon. I think it is this one:
https://www.biblestudytools.com/classics/the-works-of-john-donne-vol-1/sermon-ii.html
We will do it!
Thank you!
ā„ļøā„ļøā„ļø
Thanks for the Amy Low book recommendation -- I've sent for a copy. Also, you mentioned Henry VIII and divorce. If you haven't seen the Broadway show "Six" (about his six wives), you should check it out -- amazing music and quite a history lesson!
The book is so good, Terri. You will love it. And, no, Iāve never seen that. It sounds delightful!
I don't read this poem so much as feel it. Oh to be broken 1,000 times so that I can be made new and whole!
Amen!
My disenchanted, post-Enlightenment mind struggled with the word "Reason" as a viceroy of God rather than as an antonym to Faith. Karen, it seems that the enemy in this poem is Doubt expressed with care and with such gorgeous language. Thank you for this series,
Isnāt that interesting how differently we see Reason now that it is rightly off its high throne?
I do think the enemy is the resistant heart.