I was pronouncing the devils name like “Mr.Mistoffelees" in the musical Cats 😂.
This was my favorite scene so far. Whenever I read a play, I always choose which character I’d like to be cast as, Mephistopheles is it. Lots of levels to that one and I loved how he tells Faustus the truth and Faustus chooses to ignore him. When we are tempted sometimes we convince ourselves to sin.
I understood that scene four is mirroring scene three, but my brain is having a difficult time processing the way it is written.
There is definitely a lot going on in Scene 4 that’s hard: lots of slang and jargon and the way Wagner and the Clown kind of switch back and forth in their roles mirroring Scene 3. I think a lost gets lost (for me) in the archaic language in this scene. And the humor is also arcane.
Acting on my philosophy of reading and listening to music genres that I mentioned, I listened to the Stones' Sympathy for the Devil. Karen, do you realize what a dark path you are leading me down? 😉 In my ATI apprentice years, that song was used as the most lurid example of how rock music is actually Satanic. So I finally heard it today. And I don't think it is about the Devil at all, but about how we conviently blame human evil desires and actions on an outer spiritual force, rather than taking responsibility.
Mephistopheles so far has been completely fair and upfront with Faustus . He warned him of the consequences of his actions and also warned the rest of us of his by renouncing Christ we too might attract demons, and he warns him of the horrors of damnation . I think that so far Faustus could hardly claim breach of contract once Lucifer turns up
The clown's declaration he would sell his soul for mutton reminded me strongly of Esau selling his birthright for a bowl of pottage. The term Mephistophelian bargain means exchanging something of great value for something that is worthless.
Near us, at Chanctonbury Ring in Sussex the legend is that if you run seven times round the ring widdershins the devil appears and offers you a bowl of porridge in return for your soul, I thought that was because Sussex peasants must have been starving but possibly it is a reference to Esau
I love the term widdershins. We don't use it nearly enough on this side of the pond - just the more mundane counterclockwise. D. L. Sayers mentions in 'The Nine Tailors' that it was considered bad luck to go around a church widdershins - maybe it was thought one could accidentally conjure a demon that way?
The thing about the story of Esau is that he didn't sell his birthright to the devil. He sold it to Jacob, who, in spite of all his devious ways - ostensibly lying and scheming his way to a fortune in herd animals and a dynasty in sons - got the blessing instead of Esau. Perhaps the demons of great literature are so sympathetic because they are actually endowed with human qualities by their human authors, and like Jacob, appear as sympathetic rogues. Perhaps the most accurate portrayal in literature of the really inhuman malice of evil spirits would be Ransome in Lewis's 'Perelandra' finding the grisly trail of meaningless destruction left by the Creature who inhabits the body of Weston - there is no sympathy for that thing.
Also I have always felt sorry for Esau, as an oldest child myself and never thought that much of Jacob . This is an entirely irrelevant addendum to this thread but did you know that the sacred stone of Scone, that is used in the coronation was considered sacred as it was believed to be the rock Jacob rested his head on when he dreamed of the ladder ? I have my doubts about this.,,,
Jacob was certainly no hero. I think the distinction between the two was that Esau despised the deep value of the birthright until it was too late, while Jacob always genuinely valued it. It was a difference of heart attitude, more than any outward action.
I did know about the legend of the Stone of Scone, and also that the Blarney Stone is said to be the other half of it. I also have my doubts.
'Out of the Silent Planet' is my favourite of the Space Trilogy, because it is so effortless - it truly belongs among the classic Sci-Fi genre, alongside The War of the Worlds and the best works of Jules Verne, and yet it conveys some profound spiritual truths. 'Perelandra' is a bit more laboured, but it has long sections of brilliance and that scene is one of them.
Every time I look at the trilogy I am reminded how much I don’t like science fiction. But every time people enthuse about the books, I’m tempted all over again!
As a general rule I don't like science fiction either, as in I don't read a book just because it is sci-fi. Aside: that is also true of fantasy for me. But I have a philosophy of reading, that any genre can encompass both trash and great literature and everything in between. So if I hear enough good things about a book, I will read it, whatever the genre. It is something I also practice with listening to music - I was raised on classical and still prefer, but there are even rap and hip-hop works that I respect and enjoy.
Do you think that the portrayal of Mephistopheles , who is a character one can at least sympathise with , leads to the proud and probably unintentionally attractive portrayal of Satan in Paradise Lost ?
Good question. I think evil (or an evil character) is often attractive on some level, attractive to our baser nature. And I think the closer we get to our own time within modernity, the more likely evil that speaks to modern values is appealing. So, for example, if we look at how Dante ranks sin in The Inferno, it often doesn’t align with modern ranking of sins/wrongdoing. Milton painted a picture of evil that appeals more to modern values than he realized. But also those qualities weren’t really seen as appealing in Milton’s time. That happened a couple centuries later among Romantic critics who were, I believe, the first to see Milton’s Satan as attractive.
I didn’t know that - I should say that I haven’t read the whole of Paradise Lost (are we doing it later ?) but I always thought that Milton , a Parlamentarian ,channelled his feelings of rebelling against the established order into the character of Satan . And I hadn’t thought about that with Dante either , that treachery against the state is one of the worst of the sins , which I suppose it still is in law , but also being a bad guest
I suppose there are some personal politics there. And I’m sure PL can be read that way (and probably is). But I don’t think Milton intended Satan to look heroic. I think he liked Adam, who seems sort of a prig to me 😂. I think we will cover at least some of the work!
Thanks Karen for these essays. Such a contrast to Milton's proud Satan ---"Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven" and "The mind is its own place, and in itself can male a hell of heaven, a heaven of hell." Maybe it's because Mephistopheles is just a foot soldier demon.
It is a sharp contrast! And I like your insight about Mephistopheles being just a foot soldier. And perhaps a high enough one to really feel the regret.
A new book coming - great! I'm sure you'll have seen it but, if not, you might want to give Andi Ashworth & Charlie Peacock's new work a read/listen (I'm currently doing the latter) - Why Everything That Doesn't Matter, Matters So Much. Sounds like it could be complementary to what you're researching and writing - and gives some great music listening suggestions along the way.
Richard, I had seen that book come across my radar, but I had no sense that it might be related to my own project and a possible source. I will check it out. Thank you!
I was pronouncing the devils name like “Mr.Mistoffelees" in the musical Cats 😂.
This was my favorite scene so far. Whenever I read a play, I always choose which character I’d like to be cast as, Mephistopheles is it. Lots of levels to that one and I loved how he tells Faustus the truth and Faustus chooses to ignore him. When we are tempted sometimes we convince ourselves to sin.
I understood that scene four is mirroring scene three, but my brain is having a difficult time processing the way it is written.
There is definitely a lot going on in Scene 4 that’s hard: lots of slang and jargon and the way Wagner and the Clown kind of switch back and forth in their roles mirroring Scene 3. I think a lost gets lost (for me) in the archaic language in this scene. And the humor is also arcane.
Acting on my philosophy of reading and listening to music genres that I mentioned, I listened to the Stones' Sympathy for the Devil. Karen, do you realize what a dark path you are leading me down? 😉 In my ATI apprentice years, that song was used as the most lurid example of how rock music is actually Satanic. So I finally heard it today. And I don't think it is about the Devil at all, but about how we conviently blame human evil desires and actions on an outer spiritual force, rather than taking responsibility.
I almost have no words. All the things I felt as reading this comment…horror, regret, joy…
The song is really so brilliant, isn’t it?
Mephistopheles so far has been completely fair and upfront with Faustus . He warned him of the consequences of his actions and also warned the rest of us of his by renouncing Christ we too might attract demons, and he warns him of the horrors of damnation . I think that so far Faustus could hardly claim breach of contract once Lucifer turns up
😂 Agree!
The clown's declaration he would sell his soul for mutton reminded me strongly of Esau selling his birthright for a bowl of pottage. The term Mephistophelian bargain means exchanging something of great value for something that is worthless.
Near us, at Chanctonbury Ring in Sussex the legend is that if you run seven times round the ring widdershins the devil appears and offers you a bowl of porridge in return for your soul, I thought that was because Sussex peasants must have been starving but possibly it is a reference to Esau
I love the term widdershins. We don't use it nearly enough on this side of the pond - just the more mundane counterclockwise. D. L. Sayers mentions in 'The Nine Tailors' that it was considered bad luck to go around a church widdershins - maybe it was thought one could accidentally conjure a demon that way?
The thing about the story of Esau is that he didn't sell his birthright to the devil. He sold it to Jacob, who, in spite of all his devious ways - ostensibly lying and scheming his way to a fortune in herd animals and a dynasty in sons - got the blessing instead of Esau. Perhaps the demons of great literature are so sympathetic because they are actually endowed with human qualities by their human authors, and like Jacob, appear as sympathetic rogues. Perhaps the most accurate portrayal in literature of the really inhuman malice of evil spirits would be Ransome in Lewis's 'Perelandra' finding the grisly trail of meaningless destruction left by the Creature who inhabits the body of Weston - there is no sympathy for that thing.
Also I have always felt sorry for Esau, as an oldest child myself and never thought that much of Jacob . This is an entirely irrelevant addendum to this thread but did you know that the sacred stone of Scone, that is used in the coronation was considered sacred as it was believed to be the rock Jacob rested his head on when he dreamed of the ladder ? I have my doubts about this.,,,
Jacob was certainly no hero. I think the distinction between the two was that Esau despised the deep value of the birthright until it was too late, while Jacob always genuinely valued it. It was a difference of heart attitude, more than any outward action.
I did know about the legend of the Stone of Scone, and also that the Blarney Stone is said to be the other half of it. I also have my doubts.
I always felt sorry for Esau as well! I’m the youngest but I hated the idea of a mother having such an obvious favorite.
Oh, yes. Good parallel in the white witch.
I haven’t read Perelanda. Perhaps someday I will.
'Out of the Silent Planet' is my favourite of the Space Trilogy, because it is so effortless - it truly belongs among the classic Sci-Fi genre, alongside The War of the Worlds and the best works of Jules Verne, and yet it conveys some profound spiritual truths. 'Perelandra' is a bit more laboured, but it has long sections of brilliance and that scene is one of them.
Every time I look at the trilogy I am reminded how much I don’t like science fiction. But every time people enthuse about the books, I’m tempted all over again!
As a general rule I don't like science fiction either, as in I don't read a book just because it is sci-fi. Aside: that is also true of fantasy for me. But I have a philosophy of reading, that any genre can encompass both trash and great literature and everything in between. So if I hear enough good things about a book, I will read it, whatever the genre. It is something I also practice with listening to music - I was raised on classical and still prefer, but there are even rap and hip-hop works that I respect and enjoy.
There is a good parallel there!
Do you think that the portrayal of Mephistopheles , who is a character one can at least sympathise with , leads to the proud and probably unintentionally attractive portrayal of Satan in Paradise Lost ?
Good question. I think evil (or an evil character) is often attractive on some level, attractive to our baser nature. And I think the closer we get to our own time within modernity, the more likely evil that speaks to modern values is appealing. So, for example, if we look at how Dante ranks sin in The Inferno, it often doesn’t align with modern ranking of sins/wrongdoing. Milton painted a picture of evil that appeals more to modern values than he realized. But also those qualities weren’t really seen as appealing in Milton’s time. That happened a couple centuries later among Romantic critics who were, I believe, the first to see Milton’s Satan as attractive.
I didn’t know that - I should say that I haven’t read the whole of Paradise Lost (are we doing it later ?) but I always thought that Milton , a Parlamentarian ,channelled his feelings of rebelling against the established order into the character of Satan . And I hadn’t thought about that with Dante either , that treachery against the state is one of the worst of the sins , which I suppose it still is in law , but also being a bad guest
I suppose there are some personal politics there. And I’m sure PL can be read that way (and probably is). But I don’t think Milton intended Satan to look heroic. I think he liked Adam, who seems sort of a prig to me 😂. I think we will cover at least some of the work!
Thanks Karen for these essays. Such a contrast to Milton's proud Satan ---"Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven" and "The mind is its own place, and in itself can male a hell of heaven, a heaven of hell." Maybe it's because Mephistopheles is just a foot soldier demon.
It is a sharp contrast! And I like your insight about Mephistopheles being just a foot soldier. And perhaps a high enough one to really feel the regret.
A new book coming - great! I'm sure you'll have seen it but, if not, you might want to give Andi Ashworth & Charlie Peacock's new work a read/listen (I'm currently doing the latter) - Why Everything That Doesn't Matter, Matters So Much. Sounds like it could be complementary to what you're researching and writing - and gives some great music listening suggestions along the way.
Richard, I had seen that book come across my radar, but I had no sense that it might be related to my own project and a possible source. I will check it out. Thank you!
You'll love it I'm sure