“Life is pain, Highness,” says Westley in The Princess Bride. “Anyone who says differently is selling something.” Oh, so true. But Christus Victor, thanks be to God! (I love that you took a quote from the Princess Bride.)
Thank you for your insightful and encouraging commentary.
The reading section this week included the House Beautiful, the Battle with Apollyon, and the Valley of the Shadow of Death. I have mentioned how the man in the cage in the Interpreter's house terrified me. It was the Valley of the Shadow of Death that gave me hope that I was not the first person to suffer unwanted thoughts, from this description:
'I took notice that now poor Christian was so confounded that he did not know his own voice; and thus I perceived it: just when he was come over against the mouth of the burning pit, one of the wicked ones got behind him, and stepped up softly to him, and whisperingly suggested many wicked words to him, which he verily thought had proceeded from his own mind. This put Christian more to it than anything he had met with before, even to think that he should now speak evil of Him that he had so much loved before. Yet, if he could have helped it, he would not have done it; but he had not the wisdom either to stop his ears, or to know from whence those wicked words came.’
This is really powerful. Thank you for writing such an encouraging post. I’ve been thinking a lot lately at how my faith has been sifted and wondering how things will pan out. I don’t want to end up as one who untangles and questions so much that in the end there is no faith. I think it’s difficult because there are so many voices of those who have examined their faith and come to the conclusion that the Bible is not true or filled with many errors , sin isn’t real, and hell is a myth. To my ears it sounds good, but then what did Christ come to save us from? My untangling has been more of a process of figuring out what was taught to me that was “biblical” that was really just man-made rules and principles and what the Bible really says.
I appreciated when you said, “All this is true, and much more.” This freedom is the gospel paradox of strength in weakness.” I totally agree. You see as you said Apollyon can be many people, there were some such people in my life and there was also me. I used to be my own enemy, even while walking with Jesus. There is so much freedom in speaking the truth of who we once were and how God saved us, even from ourselves.
I guess to sum it up as Christian said, “ What I promised thee was in my non-age; and besides, I count that the Prince under whose banner now I stand, is able to absolve me; yea, and to pardon also what I did as to my compliance with thee: and besides, (oh, thou destroying Apollyon) to speak truth, I like his Service, his Wages, his Servants, his Government, his Company, and Country better than thine: and therefore leave off to persuade me further. I am his servant and I will follow him.”
It is very difficult to do well. My prayers to God are for the faith enough to allow him to guide me through the process and be okay with abinding in Him and trusting him even though I don’t see the whole picture. I trust him to guide me to the truth. He is safe. ❤️
"In Christ the bully can't kill us" - Steve, those are wonderfully encouraging words, thank you so much for them. The wisdom of Bunyan's words (highlighted in your comments) 'for a season' is also something unfailingly helpful and really worth considering. I think working through the reality of seasons in both our personal and corporate lives might save a lot of confusion and even pain.
I did speak at CPC. We have many friends there, and Les and Curt are dear friends. By God's grace Chesterton House is flourishing wildly beyond anything we could imagine 20+ yrs ago. www.chestertonhouse.org
I had forgotten how many songs there are. Part II has the famous 'To be a Pilgrim', and I have a favourite recording of the standard setting of that one, but no tunes come readily to mind for the others. I did wonder if Bunyan is quoting or composing hymns for non-conformist congregations to sing. It was very controversial for Isaac Watts to start writing hymns for congregational singing, and yet here Bunyan is writing hymns decades before Watts started writing them. Did the non-conformists introduce the fashion of hymn singing to the established church of England?
Hmmm…what a good question. I know of later (18th and 19th century) non-conformist hymn writers but I am not sure how far back that practice goes. Perhaps as far back as Bunyan, as you suggest.
Side note: Apollyon shows up in the Devil and Deep Blue Sea podcast as one of the demons some preacher was preaching against. If I remember the context correctly, Apollyon was overseeing Los Angeles during the 1984 Olympics.
I've been listening to that podcast. As a former student of Gothard's ATI/IBLP, whose childhood memories include those terrifying rumours of the Satanic Panic, the podcast is exorcizing one of the paper demons of my past.
I binge listened and realized that that wasn’t wise. It really affected me and I wasn’t expecting that. It’s very well done. But that is part of why it’s so affecting.
I binge listened too. I found it cathartic - there was real evil and darkness we encountered in my childhood and youth which looked nothing like the rumoured darkness, and that disconnect was maddening. It is well made - as a musician, I have been enjoying the sound engineering, and have discovered the intriguing music of Dirt Poor Robins as a result of the theme.
The music is really good! I think I approach these things so detachedly and impersonally most of the time…but when it hit close to home with the LU and SBC stuff, I wasn’t ready. Something like that. Of course, the way we process all this stuff (whatever it was for any of us) isn’t necessarily predictable either.
I have noticed for several years now that many of the current internet rumours are rehashings from the Satanic Panic, as if many Christians never learned how wrong they had been the first time. As an older millennial I am old enough to remember those years, and young enough to understand the vulnerability of the younger generations to believing such rumours. So it is a relief to see someone else working to help us remember the past in hopes of learning from it.
It sounds like we are around the same age, and although my family didn't join IBLP, I was raised in a similar environment for years. I hadn't heard of this podcast - thanks for mentioning it. I plan to check it out- it's good to know we're not alone.
Gothard had many in his grip when I was in college, so I resonated with the stories in "Shiny Happy People." And that community was rife with panic of people out to get us: the libs, Satan, Big Brother, the Russians, the Illuminati. So much fear. The Devil & the Deep Blue Sea podcast rings very true.
I continue to enjoy the illustrations and art included in these posts. They are a great complement to the content and provide an additional way to reflect on what we’re reading. Thank you for thoughtfully including these!
“Life is pain, Highness,” says Westley in The Princess Bride. “Anyone who says differently is selling something.” Oh, so true. But Christus Victor, thanks be to God! (I love that you took a quote from the Princess Bride.)
Thank you for your insightful and encouraging commentary.
About Satan's many tactics yet to be revealed by Bunyan, I was tempted to use Vizzini's line to the Man in Black: "Wait till I get going!"
😅
Beautiful and true. Thank you.
The reading section this week included the House Beautiful, the Battle with Apollyon, and the Valley of the Shadow of Death. I have mentioned how the man in the cage in the Interpreter's house terrified me. It was the Valley of the Shadow of Death that gave me hope that I was not the first person to suffer unwanted thoughts, from this description:
'I took notice that now poor Christian was so confounded that he did not know his own voice; and thus I perceived it: just when he was come over against the mouth of the burning pit, one of the wicked ones got behind him, and stepped up softly to him, and whisperingly suggested many wicked words to him, which he verily thought had proceeded from his own mind. This put Christian more to it than anything he had met with before, even to think that he should now speak evil of Him that he had so much loved before. Yet, if he could have helped it, he would not have done it; but he had not the wisdom either to stop his ears, or to know from whence those wicked words came.’
Bunyan's insight into our interior life is extraordinary. Surely he has lived what his characters experience.
What deep spiritual and psychological insight in these words!
This is really powerful. Thank you for writing such an encouraging post. I’ve been thinking a lot lately at how my faith has been sifted and wondering how things will pan out. I don’t want to end up as one who untangles and questions so much that in the end there is no faith. I think it’s difficult because there are so many voices of those who have examined their faith and come to the conclusion that the Bible is not true or filled with many errors , sin isn’t real, and hell is a myth. To my ears it sounds good, but then what did Christ come to save us from? My untangling has been more of a process of figuring out what was taught to me that was “biblical” that was really just man-made rules and principles and what the Bible really says.
I appreciated when you said, “All this is true, and much more.” This freedom is the gospel paradox of strength in weakness.” I totally agree. You see as you said Apollyon can be many people, there were some such people in my life and there was also me. I used to be my own enemy, even while walking with Jesus. There is so much freedom in speaking the truth of who we once were and how God saved us, even from ourselves.
I guess to sum it up as Christian said, “ What I promised thee was in my non-age; and besides, I count that the Prince under whose banner now I stand, is able to absolve me; yea, and to pardon also what I did as to my compliance with thee: and besides, (oh, thou destroying Apollyon) to speak truth, I like his Service, his Wages, his Servants, his Government, his Company, and Country better than thine: and therefore leave off to persuade me further. I am his servant and I will follow him.”
Such a hard but important wrestling and so hard to do well.
It strikes me that The Pilgrim’s Progress might be just right for a certain kind of “deconstruction” process. Christian sure does wrestle!
It is very difficult to do well. My prayers to God are for the faith enough to allow him to guide me through the process and be okay with abinding in Him and trusting him even though I don’t see the whole picture. I trust him to guide me to the truth. He is safe. ❤️
Amen!
Amen. 🙏
"In Christ the bully can't kill us" - Steve, those are wonderfully encouraging words, thank you so much for them. The wisdom of Bunyan's words (highlighted in your comments) 'for a season' is also something unfailingly helpful and really worth considering. I think working through the reality of seasons in both our personal and corporate lives might save a lot of confusion and even pain.
This is so encouraging. Thanks for being a good friend of Karen Swallow Prior’s.
I love the responsive reading ! Thank you Steven. My husband and i met you years ago.
Anyone else singing these songs to the tune of "Be Still My Soul" or "Abide With Me?"
I love it when we discover crossed paths. Do you recall where we met?
Oxford,MS. My husband worked at Ole Miss and was interested in the Chesterton House concept. I think you spoke at Christ Pres.
I did speak at CPC. We have many friends there, and Les and Curt are dear friends. By God's grace Chesterton House is flourishing wildly beyond anything we could imagine 20+ yrs ago. www.chestertonhouse.org
So cool!
I had forgotten how many songs there are. Part II has the famous 'To be a Pilgrim', and I have a favourite recording of the standard setting of that one, but no tunes come readily to mind for the others. I did wonder if Bunyan is quoting or composing hymns for non-conformist congregations to sing. It was very controversial for Isaac Watts to start writing hymns for congregational singing, and yet here Bunyan is writing hymns decades before Watts started writing them. Did the non-conformists introduce the fashion of hymn singing to the established church of England?
10.10.10.10.10.10 meter or those close to it will all work.
Hmmm…what a good question. I know of later (18th and 19th century) non-conformist hymn writers but I am not sure how far back that practice goes. Perhaps as far back as Bunyan, as you suggest.
What a small world, Kevie! Love this!
Thank God for friends like Steve and Sheryl!
Amen!
Side note: Apollyon shows up in the Devil and Deep Blue Sea podcast as one of the demons some preacher was preaching against. If I remember the context correctly, Apollyon was overseeing Los Angeles during the 1984 Olympics.
I've been listening to that podcast. As a former student of Gothard's ATI/IBLP, whose childhood memories include those terrifying rumours of the Satanic Panic, the podcast is exorcizing one of the paper demons of my past.
I binge listened and realized that that wasn’t wise. It really affected me and I wasn’t expecting that. It’s very well done. But that is part of why it’s so affecting.
I binge listened too. I found it cathartic - there was real evil and darkness we encountered in my childhood and youth which looked nothing like the rumoured darkness, and that disconnect was maddening. It is well made - as a musician, I have been enjoying the sound engineering, and have discovered the intriguing music of Dirt Poor Robins as a result of the theme.
The music is really good! I think I approach these things so detachedly and impersonally most of the time…but when it hit close to home with the LU and SBC stuff, I wasn’t ready. Something like that. Of course, the way we process all this stuff (whatever it was for any of us) isn’t necessarily predictable either.
I have noticed for several years now that many of the current internet rumours are rehashings from the Satanic Panic, as if many Christians never learned how wrong they had been the first time. As an older millennial I am old enough to remember those years, and young enough to understand the vulnerability of the younger generations to believing such rumours. So it is a relief to see someone else working to help us remember the past in hopes of learning from it.
It sounds like we are around the same age, and although my family didn't join IBLP, I was raised in a similar environment for years. I hadn't heard of this podcast - thanks for mentioning it. I plan to check it out- it's good to know we're not alone.
This is really true.
Gothard had many in his grip when I was in college, so I resonated with the stories in "Shiny Happy People." And that community was rife with panic of people out to get us: the libs, Satan, Big Brother, the Russians, the Illuminati. So much fear. The Devil & the Deep Blue Sea podcast rings very true.
Oh yes, I noticed that too!
All this is true and much more! What a response Christian gives us as an example to respond to Satan’s accusations
Yes! This is one of the more timeless aspects of the story, I think.
I continue to enjoy the illustrations and art included in these posts. They are a great complement to the content and provide an additional way to reflect on what we’re reading. Thank you for thoughtfully including these!
Oh, thank you for mention in it. I really enjoy finding them and am glad you appreciate them. 😃