I've been thinking about various themes you discussed in this post for about a week, so it feels providential that I should read about them today.
There are two quotes in this post that last year would have made me feel ashamed, but this year only makes me sad:
"A man may be a heretic in the truth; and if he believe things only because his pastor says so, or the Assembly so determines, without knowing other reason, though his belief be true, yet the very truth he holds becomes his heresy."
**I think of how I was always taught one specific theology about something in the Bible and never encouraged to think or explore it and ask meaningful questions. I think about how I just adopted what I was taught as truth, and as I became a young adult, I defended that "truth" even though I never explored any other options. I'm finding it very difficult to break away from that mindset. It's strange. My mind feels conditioned not to explore, question, and think independently.
"xvangelicals seemed to have been told that a specific type of church was the true church, that true faith probably didn’t exist outside of it, and that the leaders of those churches could speak with near ex cathedra authority on any issue they deemed important."
** 100%. Many of us were told this and believed it, only to discover this is untrue. When I did, I wept. I was humbled.
Maybe I’m only making this connection because I’m currently reading Pride and Prejudice, but Milton sounds like a theological Jane Bennett— or maybe Jane Bennett is the social version of John Milton? The tie is loose, but I do hear some similarities.
I’m curious how well received these ideas were in Milton’s time, and what the literary responses were (if they could get them published)! I wonder if Milton was like the boarder stalker living in the boarder lands moving between divisive groups that didn’t agree with him. His call for unity in this way sounds so unique, and sadly, somewhat unique even for today!
Thanks for sharing! I haven’t been reading along, but maybe I will try to find the time to pick it up!
Speaking of— do you have any plans for Pride and Prejudice on here? I have your book with commentary on S&S. I wish you’d do one on P&P, too! The little teaser you did on the House Moot was excellent, and I’d love to hear you go deep with that book in particular! Maybe you have somewhere else? I can’t remember if you do in Booked.
Let’s do Pride and Prejudice here! I would love to! I am going chronologically—and very slowly so—so it might take a while, haha! But moving chronologically is what allows us to see these developments and influences that you were noticing in your questions! So I think there’s a great benefit in reading literature in the historical survey format. But I’m definitely going to plan for Pride and Prejudice! Thanks for asking!
Last thing! My 15 yo daughter loves P&P. It’s her favorite book! Her friend circle is planning a trip to the mountains to talk all things Jane Austen. I’ve had her read a couple of your posts on Canterbury Tales. We will 💯 make a book club together when the time comes to study it with you! Cheers to generations of readers and how you help inspire them, too! She also loved your House Moot talk. You’re doing great work that matters.
I’m sorry it’s needed today, but I’m grateful for the timing! You really are doing a great work. I think if Psalm 78! I bet Milton needed encouragement some days, too.
I am HERE FOR IT! I very much appreciate your presence here and how gracefully you preserve space for lifelong learning! I would have enjoyed taking classes with you in college. It’s a privilege to get to engage with content and your presentation of it on this format though, and I’m thankful for it!
Larger context may help here: the Church of England emerged as the “via media” (middle way) between Catholicism and Puritanism. Milton was CoE but in the years when some of this was still being hammered out. Next century, with Jonathan Swift and others, this idea of Anglicanism being the via media really took hold: moderate, reasonable, avoiding excess on either side. This IS Jane Austen another century later in all her Anglican glory.
The Evangelical Covenant denomination that I belong to uses a wise saying to guide its members: "In essentials, unity, in non-essentials, liberty, in all things, charity." The expression apparently comes from a Lutheran theologian from the 17th century. That attitude equates with Milton's appeal: "A little generous prudence, a little forbearance of one another, and some grain of charity might win all these diligences to join, and unite in one general and brotherly search after truth." I especially like his statement "Opinion in good men is but knowledge in the making." That would make a great bumper sticker!
When I read this: "there cannot be a more tedious and unpleasing journey-work, a greater loss of time levied upon his head, than to be made the perpetual reader of unchosen books and pamphlets," I was reminded of an article I read once about the content-moderation contractors whose job it was to read and judge all of the thousands of social media posts flagged each day, and the toll it took on their mental health. Censorship and free speech both create burdens on society, but the former invites tyranny, the latter the possibility at least of uncovering truth.
I’ve seen that statement at some churches. It is so wise and good. Very Milton-esque! These people who were living at the time when liberty (religious and political) were new and dangerous ideas are so helpful for us in these days. In America, we often talk about the soldiers who fought for our freedoms. But we seldom talk about the thinkers and writers who fought for our freedoms on the page. Milton is one of many of these.
You make a good point about the content moderators. That is truly a thankless but important job. There is a dark underside to that that I’ve read about as well. And that is the vile, violent, and obscene material they see and keep off the pages. I read about that a while back in a lengthy article and I had forgotten about it. I will try to raise this point an example in next week’s post if I remember. That is a very heavy cost of free speech. It’s probably not one that Milton even would’ve cared about (free social media platforms). He was more concerned about government intervention, not the free market.
I certainly grew up hearing the exclusivity claims that Smith talks about, and I certainly deconstructed a lot of destructive additions to the faith. Due to life circumstances I still move within the church circles I grew up in (rural dwelling does limit church mobility), but I am convinced the church is much wider than the Baptist tradition in which I move. However, the New Testament itself makes certain exclusive claims about Jesus Christ, and strongly urges separation from those that contradict those claims. I have found that some of the worst heresy concerning Christ may be found among those with the strictest and most regressive rules for living (i.e. the fundamentalist, KJV-only, no rock music, traditional roles for women crowd), which makes sense - a low view of of Christ's power to save us from sin would lead to a belief that we need to work harder to keep ourselves from sin.
As an interesting and Thanksgiving-seasonal note on this discussion, there is a theory (researched and promoted by Louise Walsh Throop) that a number of the Separatist Pilgrims on the Mayflower, including my ancestor George Soule, were actually part of William Brewster's illegal printing operation in Leyden, Holland (which printed works critical of King James I such as the Perth Assembly, smuggled into Scotland in wine vats) and boarded the Mayflower in disguise as English farmhands to escape extradition and prosecution by the English authorities. Specifically, she thinks that George Soule (purportedly an Englishman and indentured servant to Edward Winslow) may have actually been Gorge Sol from the Belgian/ Dutch Sol family, brother of Johannes Sol, who operated a press in the same neighborhood as Brewster and may have helped him print his subversive books. There are some gaps in her evidence which may never be filled after this length of time, so I can't 100% embrace it, but I think it's a fascinating and plausible theory. It really turns on its head our image of who the Pilgrims were as a persecuted religious minority!
Wow! That is a cool story on multiple fronts! Things like this remind us that these people were real (perhaps even connected to us more than we know!) and that this part of history (and most history) is not as long ago as it seems.
Thanks for sharing this, Vivian, and for joining us here!
I've been thinking about various themes you discussed in this post for about a week, so it feels providential that I should read about them today.
There are two quotes in this post that last year would have made me feel ashamed, but this year only makes me sad:
"A man may be a heretic in the truth; and if he believe things only because his pastor says so, or the Assembly so determines, without knowing other reason, though his belief be true, yet the very truth he holds becomes his heresy."
**I think of how I was always taught one specific theology about something in the Bible and never encouraged to think or explore it and ask meaningful questions. I think about how I just adopted what I was taught as truth, and as I became a young adult, I defended that "truth" even though I never explored any other options. I'm finding it very difficult to break away from that mindset. It's strange. My mind feels conditioned not to explore, question, and think independently.
"xvangelicals seemed to have been told that a specific type of church was the true church, that true faith probably didn’t exist outside of it, and that the leaders of those churches could speak with near ex cathedra authority on any issue they deemed important."
** 100%. Many of us were told this and believed it, only to discover this is untrue. When I did, I wept. I was humbled.
Wow. I love how Providence works sometimes. I’m glad this connected with your one thinking and wrestling, Mel.
If it’s any consolation, I was nearly always aware of many other kinds of teachings and church traditions—yet somehow I ended up being bamboozled too.
It’s an awakening for many of us in many ways.
And so, We imp our wings on His, Karen. 🧡
Yes. Yes, we do. 🩵🩵🩵
Maybe I’m only making this connection because I’m currently reading Pride and Prejudice, but Milton sounds like a theological Jane Bennett— or maybe Jane Bennett is the social version of John Milton? The tie is loose, but I do hear some similarities.
I’m curious how well received these ideas were in Milton’s time, and what the literary responses were (if they could get them published)! I wonder if Milton was like the boarder stalker living in the boarder lands moving between divisive groups that didn’t agree with him. His call for unity in this way sounds so unique, and sadly, somewhat unique even for today!
Thanks for sharing! I haven’t been reading along, but maybe I will try to find the time to pick it up!
Speaking of— do you have any plans for Pride and Prejudice on here? I have your book with commentary on S&S. I wish you’d do one on P&P, too! The little teaser you did on the House Moot was excellent, and I’d love to hear you go deep with that book in particular! Maybe you have somewhere else? I can’t remember if you do in Booked.
Let’s do Pride and Prejudice here! I would love to! I am going chronologically—and very slowly so—so it might take a while, haha! But moving chronologically is what allows us to see these developments and influences that you were noticing in your questions! So I think there’s a great benefit in reading literature in the historical survey format. But I’m definitely going to plan for Pride and Prejudice! Thanks for asking!
I was today-years-old when I learned that you write these chronologically. I began at Donne, so I need to go back and read the other lessons.
🙃
Last thing! My 15 yo daughter loves P&P. It’s her favorite book! Her friend circle is planning a trip to the mountains to talk all things Jane Austen. I’ve had her read a couple of your posts on Canterbury Tales. We will 💯 make a book club together when the time comes to study it with you! Cheers to generations of readers and how you help inspire them, too! She also loved your House Moot talk. You’re doing great work that matters.
Thank you so much! I really needed this encouragement today. You have no idea…
I’m sorry it’s needed today, but I’m grateful for the timing! You really are doing a great work. I think if Psalm 78! I bet Milton needed encouragement some days, too.
I am HERE FOR IT! I very much appreciate your presence here and how gracefully you preserve space for lifelong learning! I would have enjoyed taking classes with you in college. It’s a privilege to get to engage with content and your presentation of it on this format though, and I’m thankful for it!
🥹😊
Thank you. Yesterday was a very hard and dark day for several reasons. (I don’t have those very often.) Today is better. 😀
Oh I’m really fascinated by that!
I wasn’t unwilling to consider that I might just be a Mary Bennett with that connection. 🤣🤣 It makes me want to study both authors more deeply!
I love Mary B! 😄
Larger context may help here: the Church of England emerged as the “via media” (middle way) between Catholicism and Puritanism. Milton was CoE but in the years when some of this was still being hammered out. Next century, with Jonathan Swift and others, this idea of Anglicanism being the via media really took hold: moderate, reasonable, avoiding excess on either side. This IS Jane Austen another century later in all her Anglican glory.
The Evangelical Covenant denomination that I belong to uses a wise saying to guide its members: "In essentials, unity, in non-essentials, liberty, in all things, charity." The expression apparently comes from a Lutheran theologian from the 17th century. That attitude equates with Milton's appeal: "A little generous prudence, a little forbearance of one another, and some grain of charity might win all these diligences to join, and unite in one general and brotherly search after truth." I especially like his statement "Opinion in good men is but knowledge in the making." That would make a great bumper sticker!
When I read this: "there cannot be a more tedious and unpleasing journey-work, a greater loss of time levied upon his head, than to be made the perpetual reader of unchosen books and pamphlets," I was reminded of an article I read once about the content-moderation contractors whose job it was to read and judge all of the thousands of social media posts flagged each day, and the toll it took on their mental health. Censorship and free speech both create burdens on society, but the former invites tyranny, the latter the possibility at least of uncovering truth.
I’ve seen that statement at some churches. It is so wise and good. Very Milton-esque! These people who were living at the time when liberty (religious and political) were new and dangerous ideas are so helpful for us in these days. In America, we often talk about the soldiers who fought for our freedoms. But we seldom talk about the thinkers and writers who fought for our freedoms on the page. Milton is one of many of these.
You make a good point about the content moderators. That is truly a thankless but important job. There is a dark underside to that that I’ve read about as well. And that is the vile, violent, and obscene material they see and keep off the pages. I read about that a while back in a lengthy article and I had forgotten about it. I will try to raise this point an example in next week’s post if I remember. That is a very heavy cost of free speech. It’s probably not one that Milton even would’ve cared about (free social media platforms). He was more concerned about government intervention, not the free market.
Lovely! I hear something similar in my church about the first two points, but I have not heard the third! I’m writing that down! Thanks for sharing.
I certainly grew up hearing the exclusivity claims that Smith talks about, and I certainly deconstructed a lot of destructive additions to the faith. Due to life circumstances I still move within the church circles I grew up in (rural dwelling does limit church mobility), but I am convinced the church is much wider than the Baptist tradition in which I move. However, the New Testament itself makes certain exclusive claims about Jesus Christ, and strongly urges separation from those that contradict those claims. I have found that some of the worst heresy concerning Christ may be found among those with the strictest and most regressive rules for living (i.e. the fundamentalist, KJV-only, no rock music, traditional roles for women crowd), which makes sense - a low view of of Christ's power to save us from sin would lead to a belief that we need to work harder to keep ourselves from sin.
Another horseshoe effect, Holly! One can deny Christ on the right or the left…
I so appreciate your faithfulness and the way you present here even while acknowledging some of the hard things.
As an interesting and Thanksgiving-seasonal note on this discussion, there is a theory (researched and promoted by Louise Walsh Throop) that a number of the Separatist Pilgrims on the Mayflower, including my ancestor George Soule, were actually part of William Brewster's illegal printing operation in Leyden, Holland (which printed works critical of King James I such as the Perth Assembly, smuggled into Scotland in wine vats) and boarded the Mayflower in disguise as English farmhands to escape extradition and prosecution by the English authorities. Specifically, she thinks that George Soule (purportedly an Englishman and indentured servant to Edward Winslow) may have actually been Gorge Sol from the Belgian/ Dutch Sol family, brother of Johannes Sol, who operated a press in the same neighborhood as Brewster and may have helped him print his subversive books. There are some gaps in her evidence which may never be filled after this length of time, so I can't 100% embrace it, but I think it's a fascinating and plausible theory. It really turns on its head our image of who the Pilgrims were as a persecuted religious minority!
Wow! That is a cool story on multiple fronts! Things like this remind us that these people were real (perhaps even connected to us more than we know!) and that this part of history (and most history) is not as long ago as it seems.
Thanks for sharing this, Vivian, and for joining us here!